Front tie bar
#11
10-29-2020, 08:35 AM
Please tell me which state it is illegal to run a roll bar. Harness bar or full cage on the street. Site the VC. I do understand that with a full cage you will need to remove and or disconnect the SRS but again I am not aware any state that it is illegal to do that! 
And you are totally wrong about the safety aspect of a roll cage. But I can see where this is going!
I ran a Full 18 point cage in my 68 Camaro and you would have not really even seen it unless you looked inside the interior up close. LOL
The other funny thing is you think a law officer will pull you over for a roll bar or cage ... look at your car.. it is a rolling citation waiting just in the pictures ....LOL
your personal license plate should read "UNSAFE"
Your quote about your car and response in bold ........
I'm currently running a set of Ground Control Coil-overs on a set of KYB GR2's Are these the parts numbers for your car? Most like they are, in which case you have lowered the operating piston in the area not design for the neutral operation of the dampener. What you should have done was found a shorter dampener. I also installed a set of poly bushings on the end-links front and back and sway bar hold downs along with poly steering rack bushings to keep the rack from moving changing the steering geometry of the suspension. The steering geometry was change when you lowered the car. I Currently it is out of its designed specification for operation and can only be correct by spacing the lower control arms back to the OEM design specification. also installed a stiffer rear sway bar to decrease the amount of under-steer the stock suspension came with from the factory along with inducing a degree of negative camber to help on hard cornering. The stiffness of an anti -roll bar is not necessarily an improvement unless you consider what the other suspension parts are doing and increase the anti roll in a percentage to tie together all the other suspension parts. The lower control arms have been set at a ride height to be level to the ground to maximize the stability in bump and droop. Your sentence about the control arms makes no sense. To much to correct about the information. The suspension is fairly stiff but the car corners really flat. Stiffness dopes not equate to improved handling and in fact if had done everything correctly you should not have a “STIFF” “buckboard” ride but a firmer but still forgiving ride quality. The 70's are long gone for “STIFFER riding cars. LOL
One of the reasons I wanted to install a tie bar on the front is because the car has a cross-member that spans across the suspension but I had to remove it as it hit the stainless 4/2/1 header with straight pipe I had installed.
My plan is to install a lower tie bar and an upper strut tower bar to locate the strut towers and decrease as much movement as I can on hard cornering. Your idea is almost correct but the way you are thinking is really going to end up with NOTHING! About the only measurable improvement might be if you use a solid and as straight as possible strut tower bar having clearance of other engine bay parts and directly bolting to top of strut tower with no adjustable fasteners of any kind. Rule of thumb if you can flex it off the car it isn't going to work on the car. LOL Most all available strut tower bars offered are bling!!!!!! By stabilizing the suspension in this way the car will be more stable at high speed cornering and just at high speed in general. You IMHO have to many mixed match parts and from what I see it will be next to impossible to make them all work well. And I can tell you your car will be very unstable in high speed cornering! You will be fighting the car at every-turn which in the end makes for a slower track or cornering vehicle.
And you are totally wrong about the safety aspect of a roll cage. But I can see where this is going!
I ran a Full 18 point cage in my 68 Camaro and you would have not really even seen it unless you looked inside the interior up close. LOL
The other funny thing is you think a law officer will pull you over for a roll bar or cage ... look at your car.. it is a rolling citation waiting just in the pictures ....LOL
your personal license plate should read "UNSAFE"
Your quote about your car and response in bold ........
I'm currently running a set of Ground Control Coil-overs on a set of KYB GR2's Are these the parts numbers for your car? Most like they are, in which case you have lowered the operating piston in the area not design for the neutral operation of the dampener. What you should have done was found a shorter dampener. I also installed a set of poly bushings on the end-links front and back and sway bar hold downs along with poly steering rack bushings to keep the rack from moving changing the steering geometry of the suspension. The steering geometry was change when you lowered the car. I Currently it is out of its designed specification for operation and can only be correct by spacing the lower control arms back to the OEM design specification. also installed a stiffer rear sway bar to decrease the amount of under-steer the stock suspension came with from the factory along with inducing a degree of negative camber to help on hard cornering. The stiffness of an anti -roll bar is not necessarily an improvement unless you consider what the other suspension parts are doing and increase the anti roll in a percentage to tie together all the other suspension parts. The lower control arms have been set at a ride height to be level to the ground to maximize the stability in bump and droop. Your sentence about the control arms makes no sense. To much to correct about the information. The suspension is fairly stiff but the car corners really flat. Stiffness dopes not equate to improved handling and in fact if had done everything correctly you should not have a “STIFF” “buckboard” ride but a firmer but still forgiving ride quality. The 70's are long gone for “STIFFER riding cars. LOL
One of the reasons I wanted to install a tie bar on the front is because the car has a cross-member that spans across the suspension but I had to remove it as it hit the stainless 4/2/1 header with straight pipe I had installed.
My plan is to install a lower tie bar and an upper strut tower bar to locate the strut towers and decrease as much movement as I can on hard cornering. Your idea is almost correct but the way you are thinking is really going to end up with NOTHING! About the only measurable improvement might be if you use a solid and as straight as possible strut tower bar having clearance of other engine bay parts and directly bolting to top of strut tower with no adjustable fasteners of any kind. Rule of thumb if you can flex it off the car it isn't going to work on the car. LOL Most all available strut tower bars offered are bling!!!!!! By stabilizing the suspension in this way the car will be more stable at high speed cornering and just at high speed in general. You IMHO have to many mixed match parts and from what I see it will be next to impossible to make them all work well. And I can tell you your car will be very unstable in high speed cornering! You will be fighting the car at every-turn which in the end makes for a slower track or cornering vehicle.
#12
10-29-2020, 08:29 PM
Please tell me which state it is illegal to run a roll bar. Harness bar or full cage on the street. Site the VC. I do understand that with a full cage you will need to remove and or disconnect the SRS but again I am not aware any state that it is illegal to do that!
And you are totally wrong about the safety aspect of a roll cage. But I can see where this is going!
I ran a Full 18 point cage in my 68 Camaro and you would have not really even seen it unless you looked inside the interior up close. LOL
The other funny thing is you think a law officer will pull you over for a roll bar or cage ... look at your car.. it is a rolling citation waiting just in the pictures ....LOL
your personal license plate should read "UNSAFE"
Your quote about your car and response in bold ........
I'm currently running a set of Ground Control Coil-overs on a set of KYB GR2's Are these the parts numbers for your car? Most like they are, in which case you have lowered the operating piston in the area not design for the neutral operation of the dampener. What you should have done was found a shorter dampener. I also installed a set of poly bushings on the end-links front and back and sway bar hold downs along with poly steering rack bushings to keep the rack from moving changing the steering geometry of the suspension. The steering geometry was change when you lowered the car. I Currently it is out of its designed specification for operation and can only be correct by spacing the lower control arms back to the OEM design specification. also installed a stiffer rear sway bar to decrease the amount of under-steer the stock suspension came with from the factory along with inducing a degree of negative camber to help on hard cornering. The stiffness of an anti -roll bar is not necessarily an improvement unless you consider what the other suspension parts are doing and increase the anti roll in a percentage to tie together all the other suspension parts. The lower control arms have been set at a ride height to be level to the ground to maximize the stability in bump and droop. Your sentence about the control arms makes no sense. To much to correct about the information. The suspension is fairly stiff but the car corners really flat. Stiffness dopes not equate to improved handling and in fact if had done everything correctly you should not have a “STIFF” “buckboard” ride but a firmer but still forgiving ride quality. The 70's are long gone for “STIFFER riding cars. LOL
One of the reasons I wanted to install a tie bar on the front is because the car has a cross-member that spans across the suspension but I had to remove it as it hit the stainless 4/2/1 header with straight pipe I had installed.
My plan is to install a lower tie bar and an upper strut tower bar to locate the strut towers and decrease as much movement as I can on hard cornering. Your idea is almost correct but the way you are thinking is really going to end up with NOTHING! About the only measurable improvement might be if you use a solid and as straight as possible strut tower bar having clearance of other engine bay parts and directly bolting to top of strut tower with no adjustable fasteners of any kind. Rule of thumb if you can flex it off the car it isn't going to work on the car. LOL Most all available strut tower bars offered are bling!!!!!! By stabilizing the suspension in this way the car will be more stable at high speed cornering and just at high speed in general. You IMHO have to many mixed match parts and from what I see it will be next to impossible to make them all work well. And I can tell you your car will be very unstable in high speed cornering! You will be fighting the car at every-turn which in the end makes for a slower track or cornering vehicle.
And you are totally wrong about the safety aspect of a roll cage. But I can see where this is going!
I ran a Full 18 point cage in my 68 Camaro and you would have not really even seen it unless you looked inside the interior up close. LOL
The other funny thing is you think a law officer will pull you over for a roll bar or cage ... look at your car.. it is a rolling citation waiting just in the pictures ....LOL
your personal license plate should read "UNSAFE"
Your quote about your car and response in bold ........
I'm currently running a set of Ground Control Coil-overs on a set of KYB GR2's Are these the parts numbers for your car? Most like they are, in which case you have lowered the operating piston in the area not design for the neutral operation of the dampener. What you should have done was found a shorter dampener. I also installed a set of poly bushings on the end-links front and back and sway bar hold downs along with poly steering rack bushings to keep the rack from moving changing the steering geometry of the suspension. The steering geometry was change when you lowered the car. I Currently it is out of its designed specification for operation and can only be correct by spacing the lower control arms back to the OEM design specification. also installed a stiffer rear sway bar to decrease the amount of under-steer the stock suspension came with from the factory along with inducing a degree of negative camber to help on hard cornering. The stiffness of an anti -roll bar is not necessarily an improvement unless you consider what the other suspension parts are doing and increase the anti roll in a percentage to tie together all the other suspension parts. The lower control arms have been set at a ride height to be level to the ground to maximize the stability in bump and droop. Your sentence about the control arms makes no sense. To much to correct about the information. The suspension is fairly stiff but the car corners really flat. Stiffness dopes not equate to improved handling and in fact if had done everything correctly you should not have a “STIFF” “buckboard” ride but a firmer but still forgiving ride quality. The 70's are long gone for “STIFFER riding cars. LOL
One of the reasons I wanted to install a tie bar on the front is because the car has a cross-member that spans across the suspension but I had to remove it as it hit the stainless 4/2/1 header with straight pipe I had installed.
My plan is to install a lower tie bar and an upper strut tower bar to locate the strut towers and decrease as much movement as I can on hard cornering. Your idea is almost correct but the way you are thinking is really going to end up with NOTHING! About the only measurable improvement might be if you use a solid and as straight as possible strut tower bar having clearance of other engine bay parts and directly bolting to top of strut tower with no adjustable fasteners of any kind. Rule of thumb if you can flex it off the car it isn't going to work on the car. LOL Most all available strut tower bars offered are bling!!!!!! By stabilizing the suspension in this way the car will be more stable at high speed cornering and just at high speed in general. You IMHO have to many mixed match parts and from what I see it will be next to impossible to make them all work well. And I can tell you your car will be very unstable in high speed cornering! You will be fighting the car at every-turn which in the end makes for a slower track or cornering vehicle.
The coilover shocks and struts are for an Escort ZX2 S/R which bolts directly to my chassis and was designed for it. The ride although stiff(or firm in your nomenclature) is not buckboard stiff. Like you said, it's firm.
I hear ya but I really don't need anymore reason for them to pull me over! LOL!
John
Last edited by Novanutcase; 10-29-2020 at 08:44 PM.
#13
10-30-2020, 03:49 PM
I should have been more explicit. Yes there is no actual VC prohibiting a roll cage in a car but it is illegal if it gets in the way of vision or normal operation of the car so, you are correct, It is not illegal to have a roll cage in a car but it is dangerous. One of my best friends died in a car crash. He had a fully caged '66 Chevelle. Police report stated blunt force injury to the head and determined that the most probable culprit was the cage.
As for being pulled over for having a roll cage.... next time you go to a car show look for them. LOL In black interiors the tubes are generally also powder coated or painted black. The tubes are small diameter and no you can't really see them even in a sunny no clouds in the sky day sitting at a stop light right next to a car with a full roll cage in it. LOL
The coilover shocks and struts are for an Escort ZX2 S/R which bolts directly to my chassis and was designed for it. The ride although stiff(or firm in your nomenclature) is not buckboard stiff. Like you said, it's firm.
I hear ya but I really don't need anymore reason for them to pull me over! LOL!
John
As for being pulled over for having a roll cage.... next time you go to a car show look for them. LOL In black interiors the tubes are generally also powder coated or painted black. The tubes are small diameter and no you can't really see them even in a sunny no clouds in the sky day sitting at a stop light right next to a car with a full roll cage in it. LOL
The coilover shocks and struts are for an Escort ZX2 S/R which bolts directly to my chassis and was designed for it. The ride although stiff(or firm in your nomenclature) is not buckboard stiff. Like you said, it's firm.
I hear ya but I really don't need anymore reason for them to pull me over! LOL!
John
We can go back and forth on this point but your are WRONG" about a roll bar or cage. I am sorry you lost your freind but it was not due to having a roll cage in his 66 Chevelle. If your head hits the steering wheel or windshield that is also called blunt force trauma. I doubt very much that the accident report placed cause of death because of a roll cage in the car. And for those that are heading where I am going with this...... let me just point out the obvious..... If someone install a roll cage in any car even a street car it is most likely they also installed a 4 ,5 or more point harness. Even without a helmet your body and your head are not moving around very much. The 66 did not come with any safety restraint belts but even if you wore a aftermarket installed lap belt and had a well designed roll cage it would take a good stretch of thought to figure out how your head hit one of the tubes? Unless you were not wearing any restraints at all?
I might point out that there are actually several auto manufactures that use roll bars and even roll cages in some of their platform models.
Again I do want yo say the car does lot good but from a operating point......
As for your dampeners as I suspected you did not get a dampener to fit with your new ride height. You stated they were KYB GR2 which is compressing the high pressure gas below the normal operation position.
While this may read as if I am picking your car apart, I am simply making observation and pointing out less then the best choices and not necessarily even safe. I can guarantee that if measured you have actually decreased the same steering and handling control at high operating speeds then stock. You may have helped improve your steering feed back and slower speed capabilities but not with out sacrifice and totally jacking your steering geometry and places adverse stress on your suspension parts. Honestly since you made all those changes yo find any shop willing to align it?
Last edited by Callisto; 10-30-2020 at 03:54 PM.
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