B2200 Slow to NO turn over when hot.
 

Hi,
Just got this '91 B2200 5spd (standard) with 262k.
Running fairly well. (leaks a lot of oil)

However, once hot if I turn it off then try to restart it...it will not turn the engine over until it cools 20-30 min.
It will rotate engine a little, but as if the battery is dead. Not enough to start it.

In morning when cold starts after 6-7 "rotations".

What done so far:
new battery
new starter
had battery and alternator tested twice. Once O'reillys. Another at Auto Z. Both Said alt and batt. are fine.
I added a ground from engine case to chassis. This did NOT help.
I am planning to replace ground wires tomorrow .
(I read online that could be issues with ground wires building up resistance.?)

I plan on looking at:
Fusable links?
Starter relay?
Voltage regulator of some sort?
Ignition switch?

Thanks for any input.!

also, couldn't upload photo for some reason in the meet & greet section. Thx

I'd test the electrical part of the ignition switch WHEN the truck will not start. These are weak spots as these trucks get old; I replaced my own switch in my '88 back about 1995.

And don't forget to also check the safety switch on your clutch pedal.

I'd like to know the voltage reading across the battery WHILE it's trying to crank the engine.

Thx Cusser.
just to clarify to know what I am testing...
ignition switch: test at column near steering wheel? Checking to see that it has current? and how much?
clutch safety switch: checking to see it is getting current? or if it is heat hot? or that it functions mechanically?...or all?
thx

Did some tests

Across battery:
12.5(+) not running cold or hot engine
9-10v while cranking cold or hot
13 (+) while running cold or hot

Starter:
12 (+)v not running cold or hot engine
9-10v while cranking cold or hot engine

Ingnition switch at steering column:
With key on but not cranking.
( I am assuming the Blk/yllw is ground ?)

This is when hot (after run for 30 min. or so)
Blk/Ylw - Blk/wht -10v
blk/ylw - blue . 03v …..(but also had a -9v when cranking
blk/ylw - blk/rd -12v
blk/ylw - wht/red 11.75v - 12.78v

I put meter on clutch switch but got nothing. is this to be done while cranking?

Black/yellow goes to the clutch pedal switch, and then on to the starter. The clutch pedal switch only has continuity when pushed down, and will also only have voltage going to it when trying to start. A starter needs to have minimum of 9.6 volts to get it to operate.

Have you tried a jump start from another battery?
Cleaned all your connections and terminals?
Tried "jumping" your starter by putting in neutral and momentarily shorting the small wire connector at the starter to the large 12 volt positive wire terminal ? Be careful,
things like fan could start to spin.
Tried "jumping" your ignition switch by putting in neutral and momentarily shorting the Black/yellow ire to the hot wire?
Above tests will help diagnose your issue.

PM me with your E-mail address, and I'll send a wiring diagram manual; will be for later year but still applicable.

Posts and connections are clean.
Tried jumping from another running car. Just turned slow to dead.

Ignition switch is "hot wire" blk/red?

will try other suggestions tomorrow.
Thx

DID this today while engine hot and not turning over :

jumped at ignition switch = slow/no turn over. no start. (fyi blk/ylw to blk/rd)

jumped at starter = starter spun by itself freely (with ignition OFF)... BUT (ignition ON) when engaged w/ engine slow/no turn over

I can push start the truck pretty easily.

Perhaps I got a dud starter? from autozone?

Ugh... in my experience, every part i get from autozone needs to be brought back at least once for a new one.... Especially alternators. Since the return is free i'd try popping free-b starter in.

Hi Greenbee,
Thanks. Yes. you are exactly right.
I took the first one back and got another.
The 2cnd starter is better...…...
However, the 2cnd starter is now having problems. When cold it just spins for several cranks. sounds like it is not popping out to engage flywheel.
So, I bought a 3rd one! from Rock Auto. It is an AC Delco. haven't had time to put it in. hope to in the next couple of days.

Also, My apologies for not posting anything about my findings.
Meant to do it but got side tracked.
I really appreciate all the help.
Thanks!

I installed a "brand-new" Autozone starter in our 2005 Yukon about 5 years ago, and it's been fine (and lifetime warrantied). I installed a rebuilt CarQuest starter in our 1998 Frontier about a dozen years/110K miles ago, and that's been fine as well. So that's my only hands-on experiences with starter installs except for my old VWs which have Bosch starters.

Okay if you're having a problem like that (slow/excessive starter spinning) with the 2nd AutoZone starter, you MAY not be getting enough voltage/amps. The starter gear is spring loaded, so the inertia of the spinning motion shoots the gear into contact with your flywheel. If it isn't getting full power (~12v) the starter will not spin fast enough to engage immediately, unless AutoZone is 0-2 which IS possible. Check quickly to ensure you have the 12v signal. (battery, starter solenoid, starter)

My $0.02 from past issues - Double check the part first (and make sure its installed flush and tight), make sure your wiring is solid (test with everything with a meter if you have), check solenoid by jumping if possible, and... always wire brush and tighten all of your "O" style bolt-on connectors. Also, if you know what you're doing, you can use jumper cables to simply test the AutoZone starter, disconnect the batt from your car first obviously. If you can do this "ghetto" test and your gear is shooting out and returning, double down on the wiring situation.

Reply if swapping in the RA starter works, or not! Im curious! Sorry for the wordiness of the reply, but this should get you where you need to be!

Yeah,
I thought sure...it happens sometimes...but twice. That's a bummer.
It's not like it is a super complicated piece of equip.
Anyway. Will be taking it back and not doing THAT again.
Thanks

Try jumpstarting the starter via jumper cables direct to the starter from a running vehicle, this will eliminate any wiring or circuit issues in your vehicle.

** Just be very careful with live jumper cables **

This is good advice.

Thx. for some reason I didn't see your response until now. Will do this. Thx

Soooooo,
I put in the RA starter.
Now I have the opposite problem. When cold starting it spins the engine fine and starts right up.
When engine is hot it can barely turn engine over. Jumped it.
ugh

I checked Voltage.
12 (+) at batt cold & hot
12 (+) at starter hot (didn't check it cold)
14.4 at battery while running.

These symptoms are very odd indeed... i would say check electrical next, but if it works when cold, it should also work when hot. What accessories are you running? Power steering? Ac compressor? I am thinking you may be having some excess drag somewhere in the system when the truck is warmed up.

Radio is only accessory.
And I turn it off when trying to start it.
A/C belt is off.
so, No Accessories.
This weekend I will check to see that I have it positioned correctly...
It Turns the engine really slowly and almost makes a grinding noise when hot.

The Battery is a Walmart Battery. It is only a couple months old.
Could it be that the battery doesn't have enough amps? But it would seem after it has been running it would have MORE amperage.?

Heat causes electrical resistance.

Have you had the battery professionally tested? How many CCA is it rated at?

Have you tried jump starting the starter directly of a fresh good battery?

Batt has 550 CCA
it's everstart plus
Batt is only a couple months old

I have not tried jumping it directly to starter when hot.
I DID jump directly to starter when cold a while back.

had batt and alternater tested twice by Oreillys, and Auto zone.

After I put the 1st starter in and was having problems...
I replaced ground wires from battery, and added an additional from ground wire from engine to chassis.
Adding a ground seemed to have no effect at all.

Just went out now and it started up. cold.

So,
Today I jumped the starter directly from my running other vehicle.
The starter spun freely and immediately.
It did not engage the engine. It did not "pop out" I am guessing. But it did spin just fine.
Should it have engaged the flywheel?
I tried it engine cold and engine hot. It jumped exactly the same both times.

Battery on truck was unhooked.

Extra note: When the truck was hot and hardly turning over. I jumped it normally (via battery) from other running vehicle.
It did not make the starter turn the engine over much more effectively than when not being jumped. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks for your help, guys.

It wont pop out & engage the flywheel unless you also bridge/jump the solenoid.

This is good progress, I would say you may need to replace the starter power cable from the battery to the starter. Also add a earth strap from the starter to the chassis. & check & clean the earth cable on the battery - between the battery & chassis.

As said before, higher temps increase resistance, which will cause current drop & restrict the power supply to the starter.

Hope this makes sense.

ah, right. duh.
so I need to run a jumper from the pos. terminal on starter to the "other" nut that has wire running directly into starter motor?
Then jump it from other vehicle. (Isuzu rodeo)

I should replace the positive cable/wire that runs from starter to batt. ?

Currently there is a NEW ground/earth wire/cable from mount bolt on starter to the batt. I should add a second one?

You've potentially found a issue with the power cable to the starter, get that checked/tested.

k.
will report back soon.
but
to jump starter
jumper from both terminals on starter. Then cable from other vehicle?

Apologies for my slow reporting.

I just haven't had time to do anything on it. Just start it once a week to keep running.

Today I put a jumper on the starter.
Meaning: I put a wire from post to post on starter itself.
It turned the engine over really well. A couple times the starter just spun, but overall turned the engine over just fine.
This is with the battery in the truck. NOT another vehicle.
But
When I tried turning over from the key the engine BARELY turns over.

Soooooooooo….looking at the wiring diagram (thx cusser) trying to decipher what component could be bad in there.
Back to that.....

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.maz...2d3ca3c38b.jpg
See picture above; lets call the three terminals 9, 12, and 5 o'clock as we look at the photo.
I'm not sure exactly where you "jumped" from battery positive terminal.
(a) If you jumped to 9, starter should spin the engine right then every time if all else is OK
(b) If you jumped to 12, starter should spin the engine every time you turn the key to start position if all else is OK
(c) If you jumped to 5, starter should spin but the engine will not spin if all else is OK
So you need to detail if a, b, or c describes your situation.

Thanks for this.

C) I put a heavy gauge wire from 12 to 5.
The key was not in the ignition or turned on in any way.
It turned the engine over.

hope that clarifies.

Jumping from 12 to 5 and not touching 9 should cause the starter to spin, but the starter gear "should not push out to engage with flywheel and then cause the entire engine to spin".

Try jumping from 12 to 9, should cause the entire engine to spin. If not, test electrical portion of ignition switch, the wire to the 9 o'clock position, and either the clutch safety switch or neutral safety switch, depending on your transmission type.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.maz...e00c8a95f5.jpg
K.
So "jumped" 12 o'clock to/with 9 o'clock. Turned engine over no problem. no hesitation.

Tested the clutch switch (plastic one). Am I testing for resistance? Because there is no current.
Got .6 resistance.

Also, I took apart and cleaned it. was some grime in it.

So now you've tested the starter properly, it seems OK.
But the clutch safety switch (1) should have 12 volts positive to it when the key is turned to the START position (at one of its terminals); check that. (2) And it should pass that 12 volt positive through to the other terminal when the clutch pedal is pushed fully down. Your test shows that the switch itself is working (0.6 ohm resistance, that's continuity).
If your truck has factory cruise control, there will be a second switch on the clutch pedal for the cruise, so use the correct switch.

If (1) above shows no positive voltage with key in Start position (all the way over), then bad electrical part of the ignition switch.

ok.
sooooooooooooooooo

I was testing the thing wrong....duh. had meter on only the switch. Did not have it grounded on the truck. This is how we learn...right?? heh.

Couple days ago I found a $35 ignition switch on ebay and ordered it. It came today and so put it in.

With new ignition switch:
I am getting 12. (+) volts on one side.
10.4 ish volts on the other.
It is turning over consistently, though does drag every so slightly.
But overall seems to be consistently working !!!!!!!!!!

unfortunately I do not have accurate test results from the old switch because I tested it incorrectly before I took it out and read your most recent post.

That 10.4 volts is fine if that's measured while actually trying to start the engine (minimum is generally considered 9.6 volts while cranking).

Good; I'd say you did isolate the issue to the ignition switch.


Right - all you can yo at this point for that is measure the ohms resistance between incoming wire and the "run" wire in the "run" position, and between incoming wire and the "start" wire in the "start" position. But sounds like the replacement switch did the trick.

Was that a brand-new switch for $35?? I paid $103 at the dealer for the part in 1995 for mine, they were dealer only then, and I didn't have any Internet knowledge then.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IGNITION-STA...!-1:rk:17:pf:0


Hey, Well actually I would say YOU, Cusser, isolated the problem. And thanks very much. At the very beginning you suggested this was the problem. Perhaps I tested the switch wrong then??
Anyway. Thanks much!, and thanks Grim Reaper and all for your help. Certainly would not have figured it out on my own.
and it is really nice to be able to drive my lil truck around and not worry that I can't turn it off. ….Now for the next project on it!

Hope this is the last of this issue.

Thanks thanks!!!

Great !

The "trick" is to diagnose the issue, and then fix or replace the bad part. One would hate to buy a new switch like this or a starter and then find a bad connection at the battery was the root cause !!!

The supplier you used lists a slightly-different switch for my 1988, at $3 less. Both this and yours are made in Taiwan, generally considered better quality than from mainland China. As an exercise, I checked O'Reilly site today for switch for mine: it was $106.99 plus tax. And I checked RockAuto for mine, $54 plus shipping. So large savings doing Internet for this part.